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Jolla Tablet refund update

Dear Jolla Tablet contributor, As promised, we are beginning to process the refunds further on cash flow positive months by randomly selecting a number of backers and providing them with a few of options in order to handle their refund situation. As of end of July is now at hand, we can confirm the financial situation is allowing us to start the process with 100 random backers. While admittedly that is not a huge number, it is what the situation permits us to do so far. We are determined to continue with the process each month we have a positive cash flow.

How backers get selected

Since we have decided to make this a fair play and select backers randomly, a common random generator script is executed by our sailor engineers in order to pick the selected refund backers for each round. For the moment, this is the most efficient way to compile the list, and to make the process fast.

Options

As mentioned in our summer update blog post, the randomly chosen 100 backers will be contacted via email. As we all want to believe in the success of Sailfish OS in the future, we have considered adding options in this refund round. The backers will be given three options to select from:

  1. Receive credit for the same amount of money that they can choose to spend on future Sailfish programs. (such as using the credit for Sailfish OS for Sony Xperia X, which we are considering and will confirm separately if feasible)
  2. Donate the remaining 50% refund sum to the development of Sailfish OS
  3. Receive the remaining 50% refund

The backers will be given a couple of weeks in order to check their details in our refund tool so that everything goes as smoothly as possible. If option 1 seem like a popular fit for our community, we can provide dedicated channels for it later. Will get back on that based on the reception we get based on offering this option.

We thereby thank you for your patience and support and hope you have had a nice summer so far.

Sami

Sami Pienimäki

CEO & Co-founder of Jolla Ltd. Opportunistic entrepreneur, loves family, skiing and cars.

 

77 Comments

  1. Option 1 certainly is for me – if there would only be some kind of product that we could spend money on would be available, that is … ;-)

  2. > such as using the credit for Sailfish OS for Sony Xperia X, which we are considering and will confirm separately if feasible

    I do not understand. What exactly are you considering? Whether it is feasible or not to pay for an Xperia SFOS distro with tablet money?

    • @James Noori

      Could you please answer my question, even if you find it silly?

      Like a lot of other people, I want to choose the 1st option, but the wording makes it sound like it’s possible that I won’t be able to pay for the XPeria image with the refund money. In this case it makes option 1 useless for me, because I need a new phone and I can’t wait for the next ported image.

    • I somehow missed this question. I apologize.

      Well, the thing is that we would need to implement a credit system and since we haven’t yet completely implemented our credit system, we are not promising 100% that the credit option is a full possibility. We are however working on it and as soon as it is fully implemented into our refund tool, we can announce it. I hope that answered your question!

  3. Please let Dave999 be the last one getting refund!

    • Auvo, gear up! This will be a head2head battle for the gold. Mano a Mano…let the best man win!

  4. Great blog post! 100 is a great start. :)

    Also very nice to give the user some solid options. Good luck with the refund program.

    Looking forward to finally see people be refunded. :D

    One question though. What if 50 decided to donate. Will that trigger 50 more mails right now? So the total of 100 will be refunded no matter what?

    • Thanks for your comment, Dave. We will take action on that after 14th of August.

      Cheers

      • Good news but still no transparency on how you select the victims to receive Jolla’s beneficence and what your cash flows are. Just fluff as ever really.

        • What sort of transparency are we looking for here? We have a generic random generator as a script, we give it a full list of everyone who backed the project and ask it to give us a specific number of those (100, in this case). We then proceed to send emails to those whom the random generator has selected and that’s basically it.

          About the cash flow, really, I don’t really think any company shares their cash flow publicly.

          • Financial transparente, just as an idea. What you did ist asking Credit for a House, spending it for a car. And you had the cheekiness asking for a donation, instead of just granting the refund upfront. I should have given my money to the salvation army …

          • @JamesNoori

            Let me explain.

            When you say “We have a generic random generator as a script, we give it a full list of everyone who backed the project and ask it to give us a specific number of those”, these words have the same value as if you have said “We have picked 100 backers that were praising Jolla in the comment section of this blog better than everybody else”. There is simply no way to check whether the backers actually were random, except taking your word for it.

            This is a well-known problem known as “nothing in my sleeve”. What a seasoned programmer would have done in such case, is to use a publically available source of random numbers. A very popular and frequently used source is the 1955 book “A Million Random Digits with 100,000 Normal Deviates”.

            It’s funny that I’m not even connected to the IT industry, and despite that this is still obvious to me.

              • Please do not put words in my mouth, thank-you-very-much.

                I never “accused” anyone of anything, I just pointed you at how you could increase your credibility among your fans, AND at the same show your professional competence as software developers, with NO effort whatsoever.

              • You are correct – you don’t need to “bribe” anyone. However, in my opinion, you do need to have a more mature and sophisticated view of your potential customer base. They are not all “fans”. You are not a sports team who can command loyalty despite poor results. Jolla is (as far as I understand it) a commercial organisation – you need clients, customers and consumers of your products. Unfortunately at the moment your product is almost non-existent – why not have more transparency in the process. When will it be available? How much will it cost? What features will it enable? If the answers to those questions are “we don’t know” then a lot of the people you call “fans” will drift off to more reliable and available products. Why don’t you know? If you do, indeed, know but are simply not telling us – why? Jolla isn’t Red (who can realistically expect people to pay $1600 for a phone – the Hydrogen – about which we know almost nothing) because you don’t (yet?) command that level of commercial trust. Releasing details of a MySQL algorithm is possibly of interest to some but details of a product would be more beneficial. I purchased your original phone and had some hope and expectation that Jolla would continue to produce interesting stuff. Unfortunately I was wrong. Red now has my “dollars” – I’ll keep an eye open and hope that you succeed but as I’m not a “fan” but just someone who wants a quality product, I’m out.

  5. Good news but continued op

  6. Oh 100, jolly! You had 21633 backers. Have you no shame.

    • At this rate, it will take more than 18 years to refund everybody.
      With this time frame you should calculate with inflation, etc…

      • Nobody has said anything about any “rate”. The reason we have gone with 100 people as a start is how the financial situation of the company allowed us to. It isn’t a rate.

        • Ok. You start with 100/month, that is about 1200 / year. If your financial situation increases by 100% annually, it takes 4.2 years, 50% -> 5.6 years, 25% -> 7.6 years, 10% -> 10.8 years, 5% -> 13.1 years, 2.5% -> 15 years, 1% -> 16.6 years.
          (Calculated by sum of geometric series, can be verified by Excel, numbers are rounded down.)

          I’m not good at economics, but if I understand correctly cash flow and profit is linked (on the long run). How much cash flow / profit increase do you plan?

          • The thing is they can’t really know beyond some short-term guesses what their financial situation will be. It’s seemed like Jolla has been in a generaly precarious position for a while and they’ve only just started making positive income at all, and they’re still working out deals etc. The promise is to refund as many as they can based on whatever their profits are, if any, and that’s really the best anyone can say.

            If they spent more they’d be hurting the company and hence reducing the likelihood of more profits to pay refunds in the future. Anyone can “plan” to make enough money to issue refunds at a good rate, but if the money’s not there it’s not there. Giving an estimate gives people expectations – better to just do what you can at the time.

          • Some people have already donated their refund (without the tiniest “thank you” from Jolla but that’s another story), and some will go with options 1 or 2.
            You need to integrate those data in your calculations.

    • @anttimonty: The number you are referring to is the number of individual pledges (many people did multiple pledges for tablet, shipping, upgrades, accessories, etc) which does not represent the number of backers, not even close.

      The number of backers that we currently owe money to are somewhere around 7300.

      • So that is around 900000 USD, maybe the staff should be laid of for few months after Xperia X release. That should about cover the cost of refunds.

        • Layoffs = no work = no cash flow = no possibility for a refund. Surely you know the basics of how a business works: you work, you get money, you pay whatever you need to pay. If you lay off people that theory is thrown away and as a result no money will be coming towards any refundee…

          • Looking at your cash “flow” which is heavily negative. It looks like they are doing a really bad job. So lay of the ones fail to deliver and keep the ones who keeps bringing the cash in (if there are any).

            But of course you can’t let your money go to the ones you ripped it off with empty promises and bad management and after that more empty promises and bad management. Guess what you’ll all be out of job soon if you don’t get your act together and put this fiasco behind you. It should have been your priority number 1 since you failed to deliver, but instead you keep dragging this smell of bullshit on your shoes for so long it will probably never wash off.

            • You do realise that it was a kickstarter type of campaign from the beginning of Jolla? Unless you are wildly naive that means that things can go bad and they do. Plenty of projects have had huge issues even when run by very competent people. It’s always a gamble. Sucks when there are problems but they are expected and you don’t put your baby’s milk money in it.

              So chill. Now, more than ever, we need an alternative to the mass surveillance of Android and slightly better hidden one by iOS. If that means we “lose” a few € so be it.

              • You do realize they mismanaged the money and used it elsewhere. That is not acceptable. That is essentially a fraud.

                Anyways I really would like Jolla to succeed, but I don’t see that happening when they continue to drag this thing along. Every press release they have made since this fiasco, has backfired with angry tablet contributors and frankly it will continue as long as they don’t mend things up.

                • > You do realize they mismanaged the money and used it elsewhere. That is not acceptable. That is essentially a fraud.

                  This, a million times this.

                  I can understand if Jolla figured out that making a tablet would only lose them money, so they cancelled it and promptly refunded all the backers.

                  The fact that they spent forever revising the hardware of the tablet, burning money hiring developers for SfOS and then had the factory sell tablets on Taobao because they were made but Jolla couldn’t pay for them.

                  So people who didn’t contribute any money to the IndieGoGo ended up with a tablet faster and for less money than their “fans” which 3 years later do not have their money back.

                  > Every press release they have made since this fiasco, has backfired with angry tablet contributors and frankly it will continue as long as they don’t mend things up.

                  Because every freaking press release from Jolla is “here’s more great news and also here’s some crumbs to keep tablet backers thinking we might one day in the distant future give them some money back and act like we’re doing them a favour”

                  You can see other people getting annoyed by this constant “tease” Jolla uses. Just look at their Xperia project and how angry people are at how much Jolla has talked up but not delivered anything.

                  Here’s the deal: Jolla is really good at telling a story. Jolla is really bad at delivering on this story.

                  Lesson 1 for marketing: expectations management. If you promise the world and deliver nothing, expect pissed off “fans”

                • @anttimonty: “… and used it elsewhere”

                  This is a lie.

                  • @ossi1967, It is not. An operating system is essentially always a work in progress. They had a working OS for the tablet when they still had the money to deliver the tablets, but they instead decided to use the money to further develop the OS instead of delivering the tablets to the customers.

                    • @anttimonty Sounds like an urban legend. I followed the tablet development closely and I know of no evidence to support your claims. Can you give any?

                    • @ossi1967

                      https://www.engadget.com/2015/03/02/jolla-tablet-hands-on/

                      http://pocketnow.com/2015/03/02/jolla-tablet-video

                      https://www.cnet.com/products/jolla-tablet/preview/

                      http://www.gsmarena.com/various_mwc_2015-review-1221p5.php

                      https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/03/jolla-tablet-hands-on/

                      https://www.phonedog.com/videos/best-small-tablet-mwc-2015-jolla-tablet-hands

                      Looks to me at that point the OS were already reasonably usable, but Jolla went on to waste their money on the OS instead of delivering the goods.

                      Or do you think they already burned the funds in just over three months… Then there is even the graph lying around somwhere in this blog that shows how much of the money actually went on to software development and how much to hardware development. Show a pretty grim picture when they had the software already up and running in march 2015.

                    • @anttimonty: You are aware that the articles you refer to are about Sailfish 2, the version of the OS created as part of the tablet project, with the money assigned to the tablet project? Whatever it is you’re trying to say, it doesn’t make sense. You try to make a point by referring to the existing software… At the same time, you say they shouldn’t have built this software (which would have been a real fraud). Then, you refer to an article on this blog that shows how much of Jolla’s (or the investors) own money was lost during the project and that the IGG campaign covered only roughly half of it… It just doesn’t add up. Whatever it is you’re trying to say, in the end you’re not really *saying* anything.

      • I have been following the refund project closely and seeing all this hate and disbelif makes me sick. The process sure has taken longer than expected, but I believe this kind of stable route is the right way to go. I just want to let you know that seeing this level of persistence and not forgetting the whole thing really makes Jolla different from other companies. And that’s not the only thing in my mind today; you lads and lasses still provide updates to the original Jolla phone. If the phone was some other big name brand device, it would have been ditched already.

        Keep doing whatever you are doing there!

        • Thank you for commenting!

          As we have always said, whoever backed the Jolla tablet and did not receive his/her product is entitled to their money and we still say that until the debt is paid. We thank you for your understanding and heart warming comment!

          Cheers

          • > As we have always said, whoever backed the Jolla tablet and did not receive his/her product is entitled to their money and we still say that until the debt is paid.

            If it was actually a debt you would pay contributors interest for borrowing their money for 3+ years.

            I’m willing to forego said interest on the “debt” if it means I can get the second half of the forever-promised-never-delivered-refund sooner.

  7. Mr. Pienimäki. WOULD YOU FOR CHRIST’S SAKE GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND MAKE SAILFISH OS AVAILABLE ON ALL SONY XPERIA DEVICES BY BLOODY CHRISTMAS?!! BASED ON WHAT I HAVE NOTICED THUS FAR, I AM LOSING FAITH IN YOUR COMPANY. IT SEEMS YOU ARE ALL BARK AND NO BITE!!

  8. Great news. My Jolla phone is slowly dying, so option 1 is maybe for me.
    Thank you for keeping Sailfish OS alive:-)

    • Oh I would love to get jolla on my z5c. Or even better z6c if Sony ever gets around to releasing something like that. Would only need to get threema ported to Jolla. Rest I don’t care about but I need my secure chat.

  9. Anyone got a refund mail yet?

    • Emails were sent out yesterday and all were delivered (a few replies has already been received too). Can’t guarantee if anyone who usually comments/checks here has been in the first 100 though.

      • So far I’ve only manage to locate one. 99 MIA.

    • Yes, i received mail

  10. Option 1 is also for me. I need a new phone maybe soon, and preferably Sailfish OS phone.

    • Thank you Kani for commenting and giving us feedback!

  11. Option 1 is for me, too. My Jolla C is bricked after 2.1.1.33 update.

    • That is very unfortunate to hear, but thank you for your feedback nonetheless. Hopefully you can bring your Jolla C back to life.

  12. So, where is the newness factor? :)

  13. I didn’t support the tablet so I have no personal stake but don’t you think that option 2 is entirely unnecessary? Surely it would be in Jolla’s interests (goodwill and promotion) to offer all those who “invested” a credit note against future purchases or the cash refund? Given that there is very little real cost to a software download I’m surprised that Jolla hasn’t offered a cash refund and the download as a gesture. After all, it must be in Jolla’s best interests to get their operating system in use by as many people and in as many geographical locations as possible?

  14. OH MY God, No transparency what so ever !
    100 backers who will only be contacted via E mail.

    WTF Jolla ! Why not use the Indiegogo platform to give transparency to ALL 7300 backers who are still waiting on their money. So every backer is able to see which persons have received their money and who is still waiting.

    And b.t.w. 100 users of the 7300 makes that this will take forever!

    You guys suck big time ! You really do not understand how this world works.

  15. This post (and subsequent comments) brings back bad memories. I really wanted the damn tablet.

    Here’s to hoping I can be one of the 100 so I can at least flip that loot to a new device to play with.

    • If you haven’t received an email by now, then unfortunately you aren’t one of the first 100… But hopefully the next round will being your email up!

  16. Well, I am not within the first 100.

    7300 backers to refund. Fare guess is that Jolla will not generate profit every month. So I guess, no point to belive that there will be another 100 refunded in September. This could take ages.

    By the way. Mr Lassila said that there will be a little something in stock for every backer – https://blog.jolla.com/new-years-greetings-jolla/

    Anyone received anything?

    • 100 refunds this month will not mean that we will continue with the same pace. 100 was the amount that we found feasible to this month’s financial situation. Another month might be more and another month might be less.

      About the post you linked, I was not working with Jolla back then but judging by the date of that post and how things have turned out, I think you should focus on the word “might” more than others. It is now confirmed that everyone will get their money back.

      • Hi James,

        Thank you for the reply. You are just confirming what I said – if the financial situation permits. You obviosly now the financial situation far better than I do. But if the first round is only 100. How big could the next be? 500? 5000? It seems unlikeley that your financial situation can be improved 5000% by next month. Agreed?
        Or have you set a goal that all backers should be refunded by the end of let’s say 2018?
        I would estimate that the final unlucky backer (probably Dave999 – no offence of course) will be refunded years from now. To sum up – it takes ages.

        Regarding the little something you might had in the stock back then. Obviosly you had some 7300+ items in stock back then – if backers didn’t get who did? :)

        I just want to say that I am a huge fan of Jolla and Nokia before that. I have nothing against Jolla, but I am a bit bitter about the fact how the communication was handled before. Hopefully it improves. And maybe, just maybe in one day we can see Sailfish on Nokia phone. That would rock.

        • Hello again,

          Unfortunately I am unable to answer the question regarding how we have planned, since our monthly balance sheet varies heavily from month to month and at the moment where we do not have a fully stable situation, it is only a guessing game. Therefore the answer would be “wait and see!” and I’m sorry to be vague about this :(

          Regarding the “something”: Well it was not necessarily something physical that we had in stock, it was treated as more of a plan which yet again, I have no details on as I wasn’t a part of Jolla back then. Digging that information up would really be a waste of time when we can move forward instead ;)

          Thank you for all your support over the years and we are sorry for how we handled communication previously. I certainly hope that you have seen it improve already over the past year, even if slowly.

  17. I too have been following this refund project and seeing all that hate and disbelief makes me, well, at least wonder.

    This is not such a damn serious matter. Jolla quite likely is doing what they sure can on refunding.

    It’s a harsh and tough business to try to get into; just about locked mobile market. Google and Android have become too huge. Jolla was on the verge of death but still didn’t give up. Fight was real, they’re still here! We sure need alternatives to that huge grey mass.

    Also, Google is ruining Youtube now with their senseless censorship and “anti-hatespeech” agenda i might add.

    We need Jolla, SailfishOS and the likes badly. I’m sure it’s hard to take when it was your money and all, but these guys, against quite impossible odds in this market sure did not want this situation.

    I’m never buying an Android device and my Jolla one still kicks after so many years. SFOS update once again almost here.

    Totally support your effort. Never lose your spirit and patience despite of all that hate. That’s what haters usually want. We live in a time of great changes and Jolla is a little part of it.

    • And here we go again, anyone who objected to the money invested in tablet development being diverted and invested in developing an OS for the OEMs is a hater. Seems like a community that shares fans/developers with jolla, that also calls all unbelievers “haters”.
      I might even agree with your points on google and android – but calling me and other dissenters “haters” will only generate hate.

  18. Hello James,
    why it should be now confirmed that everyone will get the money back? Our former captain promised that everyone will get his Jolla tablet! So it will be confirmed when the last backer have his money back.

    • Hello.

      Well, I think you haven’t been following our updates since our captain made that statement. Unfortunately the financial crisis that unfolded on us made everything turn and we only were able to deliver a number of tablets to our backers… And that left us with the choice of paying the money back instead.

  19. Hello,
    of course I followed all of the post’s about tablet refund, Sony Xperia, watches software updates and so on. I read them all. Many promises were made from captain and spokesman Juhani.

    • @sailmich: this is standard for Jolla. You need to set your expectations much lower.

      When Jolla says something will be delivered by X date, assume: Jolla will release a press release on that day announcing a future release

      When said future date arrives, expect another press release about unexpected delays.

      Repeat as necessary until you no longer trust Jolla.

      • Unfortunately, you seem to be right, hmartin.

  20. Since you now have all the answers, how many was actually refunded and will we see anymore mails to cover the 100 refunds?

  21. Wow, got my money back today (I’m one of the lucky 100 I suppose). I was already getting sceptical about the refund earlier this year. Thank you Jolla for keeping your promises. I hope everyone else will get their refunds soon as well. This is the end of my Jolla sailing, but I wish all of you the best of luck.

    • Glad you got it, and thank you! Blog update coming tomorrow!

      • What update? Can’t find it. I’m ready for an update tomorrow. Or do you mean tomorrow of tomorrow :D

        Hope for some cool news tomorrow. Thx

      • Hahaha even you are getting indoctrinated by your own management.
        Making false promises all over the place … let me guess your update will be late but we will get our blog update?

  22. @ossithetroll
    You really are clueless. What Jolla did here. The software was ready enough for release way before they ran out of money to make the tablet or they had already spend it and used the indiegogo project just to stay afloat with no intention to ever deliver a tablet. Which I refuse to believe atleast to the point when the only trustworthy guy Mark Dillon left.

    • @anttimonty: Of course the software for the tablet was ready when the tablet was ready. (Which was roughly a year before the financial troubles started.) What kind of a statement is this?

      The IGG campaign started before all this happened.

      Maybe you take a piece of paper, draw a timeline and try to get an overview of when what happened.

  23. The timeline is right here http://reviewjolla.blogspot.fi/2016/04/jolla-tablet-another-delay-on-shipping.html, no need to draw a picture unless you don’t know how to read dates.

    And in march 2015 the software would have been ready enough for release and they should have directed the indiegogo funds to actually building the tablet, but they went and wasted it on the software instead.

    Since you are only trolling and have nothing to back up your claims. I’ll decline further conversation with you.

    • @anttimonty: The purpose of the IGG campaign was to finance both the operating system for the tablet and the tablet itself. Of course the money from this campaign was by far not enough to really finance the project which cost 100% more. So there was no surplus from the IGG campaign that could have been spent on anything… refunds, further software development (as you claim it happened) or whatever.

      Also, the financial troubles started towards the end of 2015. How you could assume that by that time they had any money left from a campaign that 1 year earlier had covered only 50% of the costs of the project is beyond me.

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